Thomas Dugdale, Full Transcript Part 1

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Thomas Dugdale (TD) was interviewed by W.R. Mitchell (WRM) many times. In this particular interview Thomas Dugdale talks about life in Settle and Giggleswick between the First World War and the Second World War. He talks about his grandfather, Javez Dugdale, who was an auctioneer and Methodist minister and his father, William Edward Dugdale, an engineer, who continued the auctioneering business. He also refers to the activities of other prominent Settle personalities including amusing anecdotes about Tot Lord; Mr Robinson, the proprietor of the garage/cafe at the top of Buckhaw Brow; and John Delaney, entrepreneur.

In this part of the interview he touches on army training, transport, travelling, shops, cinemas, and many other activities, people and places in the district.


[Start of interview: 00:00:08]

TD: Well, I was born in 1912.

WRM: You were?

TD: Yes.

WRM: Do you remember that period in Settle before the First World War?

TD: No; well, I couldn’t really because war broke out in ’14 and I was only two years old.

WRM: And so the First World War, do you remember anything about it in Settle?

TD: Well, I remember me father was in the Territorial Army, and he used to come home from his exercises with his rifle and a uniform, and they had a camp up at Attermire.

WRM: Did they?

TD: And somewhere I’ve photographs of that.

WRM: Is that where the rifle practice used to take place?

TD: Yes, that’s right. They used to have a camp up there, and they used to go up there on exercises.

WRM: Did they? Did that continue after the war?

TD: I wouldn’t have thought so. They used to have a mess up there and they used to do cooking, and camping and tents and all sorts.

WRM: What, did they used to just go up now and again?

TD: No, I think they were going up every weekend during the war. They were training up there. As it was the Territorial Army I should think they’d be training up there.

WRM: And this was actually training up people to go to war, was it?

TD: Yes.

WRM: It wasn’t the Home Guard?

TD: No, no; I think they were training... it was going on during the war. I don’t remember anything, I only now have a few photographs somewhere, and Dad used to go up at weekends and then come back. I remember his rifle in the front room and him changing from his uniform into civvies.

WRM: Is there anything else you remember of that First World War period? You know the conditions in the town at that time?

TD: No.

WRM: And so after the war, that would come into the ‘20s then wouldn’t it, and you would remember quite a bit about the ‘20s wouldn’t you?

TD: Well, yes. I remember about the traction engines running the trains between Giggleswick Quarry and the station, and the cabs and the horses running from Giggleswick station to Settle.

WRM: First of all, these traction engines: was it P.W. Spencer’s at that time? At the quarry.

TD: I would have thought so, yes. Who is it was a driver? Err, Parsons at Giggleswick.

WRM: Joe, was he?

TD: He was a driver.

WRM: Oh, I’ll go and have a chat with him. And this was the time, there are some photographs about, of deep ruts aren’t there?

TD: Oh, it used to be terrible. It was eighteen inches, two foot deep in mud all the way right down Belle Hill, in front of the hospital and down Four Lane Ends. Well, it rained regularly until they put the overhead railway... whatever they call it, you know, that carried the pump...?

WRM: When did they put that in?

TD: Well, that must have been early ‘20s, I should think. But the cabs used to have to go round by the beck side and round because it used to get that [bad] you couldn’t travel on that other road, it was too deep.

WRM: These were motor cabs, were they?

TD: No, horse.

WRM: Horse-drawn cabs. Where did they start in Settle?

TD: Well as far as I know, I may be wrong but I think that they’d start in Kirkgate at Ashfield Stables.

WRM: And who had them? Were they a variety of people?

TD: Well, Gilchrist I think was one. May’ll tell us a more about that, I think she’d know who had them. And I think they used to charge you sixpence, I’m not certain, to go to Giggleswick station. And I used to... I don’t know why, but I never went to the Day School, I went to the Primary School at the High School, the Girls’ High School. As far as I know they started it when I was five and I went there, and they finished it when I was ten. And then Jack Harger (John he got called in the end, he became Dr Harger), he went on to the Primary School... no, not the Primary School it was the National School at Giggleswick under Stephen Parker. And I was sent to... we couldn’t get in at Giggleswick Public School, because we were too young, and my Dad sent me to Skipton Grammar School. So I was there for a year, and then they said we could go to Giggleswick School so we came back to Giggleswick and Jack Harger and I both started at Giggleswick School at the same time. But he’d had a year at the National School and I’d had a year at Skipton. Well, I had four terms actually at Skipton Grammar School, and I travelled by train. And so I’d either to go very early from Settle, or if I went to Giggleswick station I could get a later train. And then we’d to try and cadge a ride on these cabs because we hadn’t the money to pay, you see? And we’d jump up on the steps sometimes and then the whip used to come round as the driver tried to clip us round the head, you see?

WRM: What was this outfit like, was it just the one horse?

TD: Yes, one horse.

WRM: And how many wheels on the cab?

TD: Only two.

WRM: So it was a trap, was it?

TD: Well, no, it was covered.

WRM: It was?

TD: Yes.

WRM: Did it have big, high wheels?

TD: Yes, that’s right. An’ if yer jumped on the step an’ they got goin’, yer see, if they didn’t notice you you were alright. If they noticed you they had a whip, and it could hurt that if it hit yer.

WRM: Were they kind of running backwards and forwards all the time?

TD: Yes, they met every train.

WRM: Because there were a lot of trains then I should think, were there?

TD: Oh, there must have been, yes. But they used to meet every train, yer see, so they’d take somebody down and fetch somebody back.

WRM: And this was on... it’s all called New Road isn’t it, I mean, it’s Station Road but...

TD: Well, it was called New Road in those days, now it’s Station Road. And the railway... and I don’t know whether this still carries on, it might do, it’s worth probably investigating, but the wall from Settle as far as there is one anyway, is the responsibility of the British Railways.

WRM: Is it?

TD: I think it still is today. So if you knocked a wall down, down by the allotments there, it’s a British Rail wall you’re knocking down, because they must have put it up when they built the new road to the station, you see?

WRM: That’s right, and of course the bridge is quite fascinating, isn’t it? It’s an iron bridge and it’ll go back to the 1840s, won’t it?

TD: Yes.

WRM: Which is quite remarkable, really; people probably just write it off as the Gas Works bridge, don’t they?

TD: But the strange thing is really, when you think about it, is that young lads today still go to ‘the old station’. Well, it’s only been the old station since 1870 something, that’s when it became the old station, and it’s still the old station today, isn’t it?

WRM: Yes, that’s right. And what other transport was there in Settle at that time? Was there anything moving much on the main road?

TD: I shouldn’t have thought so.

WRM: It would have been before buses would it?

TD: Oh yes, buses started about 1936, I think.

WRM: And there was nothing before then, it was the train was it?

TD: The train, yes. A few motor cars of course were getting about, and a few wagons. There was Pat’s Motor Oil, he had a depot just across the road before the bridge where there’s a transformer now, and they used to have most of the petrol for here and it was all in two gallon cans.

WRM: Did that come by rail?

TD: It must have done, yes. And then that was delivered by a guy called Matteter. I think I can remember it, unless my memory is from a tale. I think he delivered it in a horse and dray in two gallon tins and I remember him delivering to Hellifield, and the day he delivered all the empty cans were all in a row and he used to fetch full ones and take empty ones away. And I’m certain in my own mind, I mean I might be wrong, but I thought he came with a horse and cart.

WRM: This was Russian petrol was it?

TD: No, this was from France.

WRM: There was a kind of Russian...

TD: Ah, the ROP, yes, that went to the top of Buck Haw Brow.

WRM: Did it?

TD: Yes, that was... possibly in the mid-twenties.

WRM: What did ROP stand for?

TD: Russian Oil Product.

WRM: Did it? So when was the top of Buck Haw Brow opened up then?

TD: Well, if you want that story I can give you that one. A fella called Robinson came, a Lancashire fella, an’ he put a garage up. Just an ordinary sort of domestic garage, sixteen by eight, and he put it up just in a field at the top of Buck Haw. And I think he came on his own. His wife was there occasionally, but I think he still lived in Lancashire somewhere and he put this place up and he slept in it and made it his sort of workshop and living place and everything and he put a pump up. And this pump was for Russian Oil Product, ROP. And I think, I may be wrong, but I think it was ten pence a gallon. The other petrol in Settle at that time was eleven pence, I think.

WRM: Who was the other major garage in the area? That would be Ellis’s?

TD: Ellis’s, yes.

WRM: Was it called ‘West Yorkshire Garage’ in those days?

TD: Yes, I think so.

WRM: Then there was Barton in Clapham, wasn’t there?

TD: Well, I think he’d be later.

WRM: Would he? I’ve got the story of Barton. Bert Cross has told me that. And then the top of Buck Haw developed into this home cum café didn’t it?

TD: And then eventually his wife came to live there, and he built that house and he never really made much of it at all. He always wore a boiler suit and clogs, and everybody thought that there were prospects there but of course he wasn’t the type, he was never the type. Then he got it developed and his wife died. His daughter is still living, she’s a Taylor.

WRM: Taylor was a policeman, wasn’t he?

TD: Yes.

WRM: Was he the son-in-law?

TD: Yes, at one time. And then Johnson came on the scene, Arthur Johnson, and Arthur was very much like Robinson. They were both very much the same type, he wore clogs, and they were very much alike. And he went to live there, and I don’t know how true it was, I’m not certain, but he was going to buy it but there was a condition that Robinson lived there together with his wife and Arthur looked after him. Well, I got slightly involved, not a great deal, because they fell out and Arthur cut his electric off.

WRM: [Laughs]

TD: So he was stuck in a room with no electric, no heating and no lighting, and I provided him with a calor gas cooking grill thing. And of course I got to know him; I always did know him but I got to know him a bit better, and the last time I spoke to him he was sat on the steps outside the Town Hall by Peacock’s office where Freda is now and he says, ‘He’ll never ‘ave it. I’ll make certain he never gets it.’ He says, ‘He’ll never ‘ave it. He thinks he can turn me out. I’ll make certain he never gets it.’ And what really happened, he was going to see Peacock then about it, you see, and I don’t know what exactly happened but eventually Johnson did pull out. But I have a feeling that there was originally an agreement; anyway he didn’t get it.

WRM: People have told me about going on trips over Buck Haw Brow and coming back and there was a table up there with somebody selling rabbits. Do you remember that at all?

TD: No, I don’t remember that.

WRM: That was told to me from the Clapham end, so it probably goes way back before that I should think.

TD: Well, he used to be friends with the Mawdsley family at Stainforth. There was a big family there. That’s a story on its own. Do you know anything about them at all?

WRM: Yes, Mrs Mawdesley used to...

TD: There was about six brothers and two girls, I think. But I was friendly with Leonard and Henry and we used to go and... they owned all the land on the scars, or they rented it, and we used to go rabbiting and fetch the rabbits down into Settle and sell them. I don’t remember ever selling ‘em at the top of Buck Haw, but we used to catch ‘em up there.

WRM: What would you remember about the traffic up Buck Haw Brow in those early days? There wouldn’t be a lot of it would there?

TD: Well, no, folks were always frightened of it. My father... I don’t know what sort of car it was, but he had a... oh, first of all he had a motorbike with a trailer, and when he went up Buck Haw if mother happened to be in the trailer she had to get out and push to get to the top! And then he had a three-wheeler. I don’t know what sort it was, but it was a belt-drive from the gear box and when he went up Buck Haw he had a little trap door and he used to open it, and then it had [unclear 00:17:06] with resin in, and he could slip into neutral. But then he swapped that with a chap from Stackhouse, I can’t think of a name, for a grandfather clock; and I think Sidney has the grandfather clock now. And then he bought... he went for one reason or other, I don’t know what made him do it, oh, that’s right he started doing a bit of haulage and he bought a wagon in Leeds with solid tyres. And he had a fella came from Skipton to drive it. He had some greyhounds and he lived in a wooden hut down Highlands Road, which was ‘til my Dad got it, a paint shop for horse drawn vehicles. And that’s where this house is now that the chap that had ‘Settle Down’ is living in.

WRM: Oh yes. [Unclear 00:18:22] What do you remember about the fish shop at Settle, in The Shambles?

TD: Well, Tipper Johnny had it.

WRM: He was an Andrews, wasn’t he?

TD: That’s right, and he won an award in 1926, a gold medal award at Olympia, and by golly, his standing went up.

WRM: He lived on it ever since did he?

TD: Yes.

WRM: Is it rather like the Wenhaven ‘Gold Medal Bakery’, but they don’t go into details, do they?

TD: Well, Tipper Johnny, I think it was 1926 when he won that. He was a very fine businessman, very, very fine.

WRM: Who owned The Shambles in those days?

TD: Well, I was just talking about that the other day. Whether it was the Craven... they owned the Tomlinson’s paper shop I think.

WRM: The Craven Stationers?

TD: The Craven Stationery. I don’t know whether it was the same... the same names crop up. John Moore, Charles John Lord... hang on, and Dickie Moore eventually got into it, and they had The Shambles, you see. Dickie Moore had The Shambles until Greenwoods took it over. And they used to let it. And McGeoghs were in the middle and they did pie and peas.

WRM: And they were there a long time, because I borrowed from John Walker I borrowed one of Settle Market Place on market day in 1937 and there was a McGeogh and Sons then.

TD: Oh well, when May and I were courtin’ we used to go for pie and peas on a Saturday night, and then go up to the second house of the cinema.

WRM: Did you? And Mr McGeogh had it?

TD: No, the two McGeogh sisters, I think; I don’t think there was a man involved.

WRM: So two McGeogh sisters, and they did pies and peas?

TD: Well, they had a little café there for treats and that sort of thing, but the pie and peas I thought were very good. It didn’t cost very much, probably a shilling or something like that.

WRM: What do you remember about the pictures in Settle?

TD: Well, the first ones were in what were called the Assembly Rooms, which was eventually became Bartondale...

WRM: Is that off Bishopdale Court?

TD: Yes, at the back of there. I remember the gas engine in there that ran the projector and a fella called Tanny Jerome had it.

WRM: Who?

TD: Tanny Jerome.

WRM: Tanny?

TD: Yes, a German chappie. His sister went to live at Long Preston eventually.

WRM: T-A-N-N-Y would that be? Was it a nickname?

TD: A nickname, yes.

WRM: And Jerome, J-E-R-O-M-E?

TD: Possibly, yeah. Now he was a German. Now of course there were no talkies, and he had the cinema where the bookshop is now.

WRM: Speight & Watson’s?

TD: No, it was called the Assembly Rooms, where Bartondale was, where Knights sell shoes.

WRM: Oh, yes.

TD: In there was the cinema, and I’m certain I went to it. But I remember the gas engine being in there, and then John Graham (who was a comedian who had been on the music hall) he came up and started the cinema in the Victoria Hall, and that put Tanny out of business.

WRM: When did he start roughly?

TD: In the early ‘20s, I would have thought. I mean, there are all sorts of things I could tell you that perhaps shouldn’t be on tape really.

WRM: Oh, no, you’d better not mention them then.

TD: But he got in trouble with the Excise people, and he got into problems, and so Arthur [unclear 00:23:14] and they took his license of John, [unclear 00:23:23] so John persuaded Arthur to take over the cinema instead of working as a clerk, and so Arthur took over. Well, all sorts of regulations came in with one thing and another and they needed all sorts of guards and things, and his father had a sheet metal shop and so they got him to make these guards to the required standard for a license, but strange as it may seem they couldn’t afford to pay for this stuff so they gave him a big roll like that of cinema tickets and he’d had to pinch one off when he went to the cinema. It cost him nothing! [Laughs]

WRM: Was that still in the Victoria Hall?

TD: That was in the Victoria Hall.

WRM: When did he build the New Vic?

TD: Well, it was sometime before the war.

WRM: Was it in the late 1930s?

TD: Yes.

WRM: That would be the last word, wouldn’t it?

TD: Oh that was absolutely fantastic, wonderful; a marvellous cinema.

WRM: What used to stand there before the cinema was built?

TD: Well, the owners intended as a guest house or temperance place or something.

WRM: That was actually demolished was it, and the cinema built?

TD: Yes. Oh, there were plenty of folk made a fuss about it.

WRM: Were there?

TD: Yes. But Arthur of course...

WRM: And Mrs Graham of course is the widow?

TD: Yes, that’s right. And he went into cinemas in a big way. They had one at Kirkby, Ingleton, Pateley Bridge, Sedbergh, Settle... and of course they used to get quite good films and they used to go all round. Harold Smith was the projectionist for Arthur at the Victoria Hall, and then the talkies came in and Harold was very, very good but I don’t think pay was so good so he came to work for me, and from then on... well, it’s a bit difficult to say anything.

WRM: Oh, no, I won’t put anything down if you don’t feel like it. I’ll be very discrete anyway.

TD: Well, Arthur used to come to me and said, ‘Can you help me out? Will you lend me Harold?’ And Harold used to say, ‘Well, I’ll go if you’ll pay me.’ [Laughs] So I had to pay him [unclear 00:26:19]. And eventually when he moved to the New Vic he came across and said to me, ‘I’ve broke down, can you send Harold across?’ So I said, ‘Yes.’ So I went across with Harold and found out that certain parts were needed and looked for Arthur, and he’d gone! So I went to see Claire and I said, ‘Do you know where Arthur is?’ ‘He’s gone fishing.’ ‘Well,’ I said, ‘it wants a new part, what are we going to do about it?’ ‘Oh, well, you know, ring up Leeds and get them.’ So I rang up Leeds, got the part, Harold will put it in as the show will be on at seven or if it’s a Saturday it’ll be the first house at six, and there would be no projectionist. So on a reel projector night, Arthur hasn’t come back. So Arthur used to disappear, you see.

WRM: So Arthur used to do the projection did he?

TD: Well, he was a projectionist when he started...

WRM: But Arthur used to do it himself did he?

TD: No, he always had somebody. He was always hard up for projectionists was Arthur.

WRM: And was there just the one show apart from Saturdays?

TD: There was three on a Saturday, the matinee, the six o’clock and then the one at eight fifteen.

WRM: Did people used to queue up?

TD: I presume they would do, it was always full.

WRM: There wasn’t an organ or anything was there?

TD: No.

WRM: That was the time when it was a craze, wasn’t it, the cinema, in the 1930s when talkies came in?

TD: I remember I was at the cinema when Tony Hislop... There was a stalls - there wasn’t a balcony but the better seats came up like that at the back - and Dr Hislop, Tony, was sat on the front and I was sat at the back. And there was this goody and baddy film on, and the baddy was running away and there was a chap chasing him with a gun and he jumped onto a windowsill to jump out and he was sort of behind the curtain, you see, the fella with the gun, and Tony says, ‘Shoot the bugger, shoot!’ [Laughs] Everything was silent and tense, but you couldn’t help but recognise his voice. [Laughs]

WRM: Actually I remember going, only about once or twice, but to come back to our old friend Tot Lord, I used to go along and see him sometime in the evening and he often used to say, ‘I haven’t time tonight, I’m going t’pictures.’ Didn’t he have his own special seat, somebody said?

TD: Quite possibly, I don’t know.

WRM: Yes, they used to keep a seat handy for him. He used to go a lot did Tot, didn’t he?

TD: Well you see Tommy Gill was the person that ran that cinema for Arthur, because Arthur was always missing, you see. Then his brother-in-law or whatever relation he was used to run the Pateley Bridge one, and his sister-in-law would be in the pay box at Settle.

WRM: So it was a right family do, was it?

TD: Oh, yes. Oh well, it was a lovely cinema.

WRM: What was Settle like in the 1920s? What sort of life went on? I mean, there was the pictures at Victoria Hall, what else?

TD: Well, the opera was very popular, and they had the dramatic club. Then the golf club and the football club, and then that would be the start of the rugby club, the Ribblesdale Rugby Club. That was started in the 1920s.

WRM: Who were the people who dominated Settle in the ‘20s? Who were the important people?

TD: Well, there was Charles John Lord.

WRM: What was he?

TD: He was a coal merchant. He used to go on the train regularly to Manchester. And there was William Ingham, he’d be on the train.

WRM: Charles John Lord, he dealt in coal did he?

TD: Yes, he was a coal man, yes.

WRM: Did he have his own name on the wagons?

TD: I don’t think so. John Delaney you’re thinking of, he had plenty of wagons all over the country with Delaney on. Wherever you went, you could go to London, and you’d see a wagon with John Delaney on it.

WRM: What do you remember of Charles John Lord?

TD: Well, he was always very smart, with a bowler hat and tie, his executive tie. He had his office next to Harger’s where that bric-a-brac place is now, that was his office.

WRM: That was the old Settle Coal Company, wasn’t it?

TD: Yes, well, Charles John Lord sold out to them, you see.

WRM: So Settle Coal Company was...

TD: ...was Charles John Lord. Well, it wasn’t strictly, no. It was John Delaney’s as well as Charles John Lord. They all became amalgamated. And then there was John Moore, Thomas Harger...

WRM: Where did Charles John Lord live?

TD: Where that house is for sale, you know when you come up [unclear 00:32:17] where Bibby’s is now?

WRM: What, the dead-leg space?

TD: Yes, that’s where he lived.

WRM: So he lived there. That would be put up this century would it?

TD: Oh, yes. ‘Raysgill’ or something.

WRM: And then John Delaney of course lived at the big house, didn’t he?

TD: John Delaney built those two houses, the big one right at the top where my Dad went to live. They were a pair of semis and he lived in the one nearest Skipton, and then he built next door and moved out and went into the bigger one. Well, you know all the stories about John Delaney, don’t you?

WRM: Some of them, yes. Which houses? There are two big houses up there aren’t there?

TD: Penmar Court, and that was Overdale.

WRM: That was John Delaney’s?

TD: Well, he lived in the one nearest Skipton. And then he got rid of that. He built the one next door which is another Overdale, you see; well, it’s Overdale now. And he moved in there, and the twin pair of semis became a Girls’ High School, and a Miss Packard was the head teacher there and it was a boarding school.

WRM: Then it became the offices, did it...?

TD: Well, then my Dad bought it, at one time, and Mrs Green was in the other. One of the Mawdsley girls, when my Dad bought it she’d married a vet who died, and then my Dad bought it when I’d be about fourteen or fifteen for eleven hundred pounds. And then there was Ted Lord, who was a great singer, he lived next to Charles John Lord, but no relative, and he married... oh, I’ve forgotten her name now. May’ll know who I mean.

WRM: Actually, there seems to have been a great building boom in Settle in the early part of this century, at the turn of the century into this century, because I think High Hill Grove was designed by W.K. Mackinson about 1906, wasn’t it, or thereabouts?

TD: I can’t tell you. I know my grandfather, Thomas Harger, built Prospect Terrace.

WRM: Did he?

TD: He nearly owned the blessed lot because there were the Miss Hargers in the top, they were his aunts, there were three Miss Harger’s lived there. John his brother lived in another, Thomas lived in another, Joseph lived in another, and then he built Halsteads and he went to live at Halsteads and he sold me Dad one. I was born in Station Road at the beauty parlour as they used to call it at one time. That’s a story in itself.

WRM: What’s the story about?

TD: Well, there was a chap from Horton... May knows his name but I forget. I can’t think, it’ll come to me. I think he worked at Harger’s at one time, and he came, and he’d bought this property and went very upmarket and turned it into a beauty parlour. And the most unlikely couple that ever lived decided to do that. And they put big windows in and they furnished it, and they put fitted carpets and everything you wanted, and they brought some beauticians up I think from either Leeds or London, and a hairdresser. And it was just out of this world. It should have been at Windsor, not in Settle, and it just didn’t take off.

WRM: When did this happen, the 1930s?

TD: I would have thought so. It just didn’t take off, and eventually they had to get rid of one staff and then another staff and then another staff. I should think they were spending money hand over fist.

WRM: It did still continue to be known as ‘The Beauty Parlour’ for years afterwards, didn’t it?

TD: Well, she went into haberdashery stuff, there was no system, they’d just buy this and buy that

WRM: Was this the wife, or was this the couple?

TD: The couple, yes.

WRM: So they went from this beauty salon down to a haberdashery?

TD: Yes. And there’d be piles and piles and piles, no system at all. It just went on for years and years and years.

WRM: You mentioned Mr Harger. He seems to have been very much a key person in Settle at that time, what was his name?

TD: Thomas. And I’m called Thomas after him.

WRM: That’s right; now he had...?

TD: Well, there were the Harger Brothers, John and Thomas. Thomas was in charge of the building side and the joinery, and also he did fretwork.

WRM: What was the other one called?

TD: The other was John and he did the furnishing side, he did the upholstery, and John was very religious.

WRM: Was he the Methodist?

TD: Yes, well they were both Methodists. They were all Methodists.

WRM: They were very benevolent actually because they used to have a lovely... and they always used to quietly make up any shortcomings in the accounts. They had a circuit magazine, and if it was fifty pounds short at the end of the year they used to slip it in and say nothing; you know, that’s good, isn’t it?

TD: Well, John; I remember his wife telling me or telling me father, probably not me, that he was always slightly desperate. Well, I think they both were but John was always in a grey suit, you see, and looking very smart. But when he came in one day and went upstairs and changed and slipped down his wife said, ‘What are you doing? What are you taking that suit for?’ Anyway, there was an old tramp on the road wanted clothing and John had taken his suit off, put his best on, and given him that one.

WRM: Isn’t it lovely?

TD: [Laughs] And then there were one or two including... what did they call that drover fella?

WRM: Old Mick?

TD: Old Mick, yes. But one or two others, you see, used to wait for John saying they were hard up and he’d give them half a crown for a meal and say, ‘No drink, no drink.’ And then they’d get him out of sight and into a pub and drank it all, you see? But then on Sundays if they were in the town at all and John was going down to Chapel he used to get hold of ‘em and say, ‘Come on, come in wi’ me, I’ll tek yer to Chapel.’ And he’d tek them to Chapel [Laughs], an’ they ‘ad to go because they knew they wouldn’t get their half crowns if they didn’t! He used to tek them down to the Methodist Chapel.

WRM: When was that big shop built, Harger’s shop? It’s a very imposing structure.

TD: Well, it was the Conservative Club. I think the Conservatives must have built it.

WRM: What, the whole thing?

TD: I would have thought so, yes.

WRM: I mean, they’ve still got the central bit haven’t they, the Conservatives?

TD: Yes. Well, I think they have the end as well, don’t they?

WRM: Have they?

TD: Yes, I think so. They had part of it as a sweet shop. The Wards, I think, had a sweet shop there. They were the proper caretakers but they used to have a shop as well.

WRM: In the 1920s Settle was a Liberal place, was it?

TD: Very much so, yes.

WRM: In fact a lot of present day Conservatives were old time Liberals, weren’t they?

TD: Yes.

WRM: Like the Nelsons down at Gledstone, people like that?

TD: They would be, yes. But they used to have a wonderful (well, I thought they were) marvellous Ball.

WRM: What, the Liberals?

TD: No, the Conservatives.

[Interruption in tape]

The first one I went to, I don’t know what age I’d be, in my middle teens possibly, but you couldn’t go without you went in a black coat and dress tie. And there was a lad called John Parker who used to live on South Parade, he became a Bank Manager eventually at Bentham. He married a Carter, they had the Ashfield Hotel, the Carters. And so he’d grown out of his dress suit, and me Dad bought me his and I went in that. And we had to wear gloves.

WRM: White gloves?

TD: White gloves.

WRM: Which bands [were there]? The blacksmith was a player at that time, wasn’t he?

TD: Yes, I don’t know what bands they’d have at that time. I know they used to play at Tosside and they used to play all night nearly and then walk back and go straight to work. Horton, they used to walk from.

WRM: And was there a Liberal Club in Settle?

TD: Yes, well, I think they had several, but the main Liberal Club was in Chapel Street. It’s been pulled down now. Where Delaney Court is, I think that’s where.

WRM: Oh yes, did it become the Parochial Hall?

TD: No. Well, it might have done, I don’t know, it possibly could have done. Then there was the Sunday School for the Methodists, that was in Chapel Square. But the Liberal Club was very, very exciting then; they used to have Balls and they used to have Sales of Work that went on a week.

WRM: A week?

TD: Yes.

WRM: Good heavens.

TD: And they had minstrels there playing, all in black, and they put a show on every night. Oh, yes, it was very exciting.

WRM: Who was the chief Liberal in the area at that time, in the 1920s?

TD: Well, the Lamberts were very strong Liberals, and the Carters.

WRM: What can you tell me about John Delaney? You’d remember him, would you?

TD: Well, I do, yes, possibly. All I remember I think, or it’s probably what my Dad told me, is that he was a Quaker and my story that I got was that of course he came to Settle to work for Hector Christie and he lived at Langcliffe and then he started selling tea in his spare time, and then eventually he got on to coal and Hector Christie sent for him and said, ‘I’m sorry but you can’t serve two masters, and you either serve me or yourself.’ And so he said, ‘Well, if that’s the case I’ll give my notice and I’ll serve myself.’ Now he couldn’t read or write then. And so he started carting coal and then he got into quarrying and bought a little quarry I believe, and then eventually... Again, I should have had it down, somebody told me the name of the colliery he bought, he bought a colliery which was for sale.

WRM: Oh, was this at Threshfield?

TD: No, I don’t think so, further away than that. But somebody told me the name of it and I meant to write it down.

WRM: Do you remember seeing him?

TD: Well, I must have seen him walking around Settle.

WRM: What sort of a chap was he?

TD: He was a stocky fella as far as I can...

WRM: Did he have a beard?

TD: Well, I’ve got a photograph of him so I should be able to tell you. And then he went to Martin’s Bank to borrow fifty thousand and buy this mine, and they wouldn’t let ‘im ‘ave it. So he went to Sheffield and they lent ‘im it, and Martin’s did all his transactions but they got all the commission. So he got fifty thousand from them. And then there was a coal strike, and his pit didn’t go on strike and so he made a contract with the Midland Railways which was apparently for ten years. And so he got ‘in’ and the whole of his output was assured by selling to the Midland Railway. So he went ahead from that and never looked back. And of course he had ‘The Temperance Hotel’ in Settle.

WRM: Which was that?

TD: I think it was up Commercial Yard, near Eddie Percy. And Carrie, his daughter, who was eventually left with all the estate and the money, she was a waitress and she eventually landed up at Overdale with a chauffeur and a Daimler and a Rolls-Royce, and a house or an apartment in London. And she used to travel backwards and forwards to London with Barwick, this chauffeur. And you used to get folks, I vaguely remember this but how true this is I don’t know, folks used to come into Settle and say, ‘What’s happened to Carrie?’ They used to think she was still a waitress somewhere! [Laughs]

WRM: And she was a waitress at her father’s ‘Temperance Hotel’? Yes, I see.

TD: Yes, these travellers used to stop there, you see, and knew Carrie.

WRM: Of course they adopted a daughter, didn’t they?

TD: They had an adopted daughter, yes.

WRM: Who lives at Cottingham...?

TD: I don’t know; she was at East Keswick.

WRM: Yes, that area.

TD: And then she moved two years ago. I don’t know where she went to.

WRM: I corresponded with her at one time. And who were these other important people in the 1920s? Well, the Moores. What about Dickie Moore’s father?

TD: Well, he was a councillor and that sort of thing.

WRM: Where did he come from?

[End of Side A - 00:48:05]