Thomas Dugdale, Full Transcript Part 2

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Thomas Dugdale (TD) was interviewed by W.R. Mitchell (WRM) many times. In this particular interview Thomas Dugdale talks about life in Settle and Giggleswick between the First World War and the Second World War. He talks about his grandfather, Javez Dugdale, who was an auctioneer and Methodist minister, and his father, William Edward Dugdale, an engineer, who continued the auctioneering business. He also refers to the activities of other prominent Settle personalities including amusing anecdotes about Tot Lord; Mr Robinson, the proprietor of the garage/cafe at the top of Buckhaw Brow; and John Delaney, entrepreneur.

In this part of the interview he touches on army training, transport, travelling, shops, cinemas, and many other activities, people and places in the district.


[Start of Side B - 00:00:03]

TD: ...and that was Dawson, Geoffrey Dawson.

WRM: Oh, I don’t know much about Geoffrey. I should have asked his wife.

TD: Well, he used to be on the station practically every Monday morning.

WRM: Did he?

TD: I remember, when I told you about going to Skipton Grammar School, it was quite an enlightening year in the sense that I used to go either from Giggleswick or Settle station and I can very much remember when I went on the station there was all these folks waiting for the train and there would be Geoffrey Dawson, William Ingham, Charles John Lord... and they would all be getting on the train going to either London or Manchester you see. And he was of course in the cotton [trade].

WRM: Was he the man who came to a sad end?

TD: No, that was his cousin, or his brother! No, it was his brother I think. He became involved in an engineering company that went bankrupt.

WRM: Yes, what was his name?

TD: John Ingham.

WRM: Ah, yes. He lived at Langcliffe Place, didn’t he?

TD: No, he never lived at Langcliffe Place. John certainly didn’t. William Ingham lived at Langcliffe Place. I know that because I was very friendly with Harry. There was William, and Harry, and Tom who died of appendicitis, and Nancy a daughter.

WRM: All Inghams?

TD: All Inghams. They were the family, and Dorothy Peel’s father was the chauffeur.

WRM: And where did the Inghams come from? Were they a local family?

TD: I don’t know where they’d come from in the first place. I don’t remember that one at all.

WRM: Langcliffe Place used to be lovely, you know?

TD: Well, Langcliffe Place, Hector Christie lived there, you see, until the Inghams took over.

WRM: Do you remember Hector Christie?

TD: No.

WRM: He had a son, Lorenzo, was it?

TD: Well... who was up at Fountain’s Abbey?

WRM: Oh, that was W-something-something Christie.

TD: Well, that Christie, that was his brother, you see.

WRM: That was whose brother?

TD: That was Hector Christie’s brother.

WRM: Was it?

TD: I think so, anyway.

WRM: He lived to be ninety odd.

TD: Yes.

WRM: If not a hundred.

TD: Well, he sent for me one day and said would I look after his lighting plant.

WRM: What, this was Hector?

TD: No, this was...

WRM: The brother?

TD: The brother, one of them, I can’t remember which. So Jack Parker that worked for me, he used to go up and look after his lighting plant for him. I don’t know why we’d to go all the way up there, but anyway. And one day Jack went up there and there was a couple of scrap fellas from Keighley came. We used to call them Laurel and Hardy. They were very smart in a way, pretty smart chaps, always dressed up: pointed shoes, very loud, checked jackets and trilbys and this. They were a very smart couple, actually. And so they said, ‘Do you know if there is any scrap?’ And I said, ‘Well, I’ll tell you where there is some. Christie has a lot of batteries. They’re not doing anything. You’ll get a lot of scrap batteries if you go up there that’d sell.’ ‘Right, we’ll go up.’ So they went up and he was a big horse racing chap was Christie, so anyway next thing I saw of them a month or two later I said, ‘Well, did you get your batteries?’ ‘No,’ he said. ‘We went up and he took us around his stables and we had a real good day with him, and there was a certainty for Saturday at the races.’ ‘So,’ he said, ‘we went to the races on Saturday and we lost fifty pounds: it didn’t come in at all.’ [Laughs]

WRM: What fifty?

TD: They’d put fifty pounds on this horse. [Laughs] And it never came in at all!

WRM: This Jervaulx Abbey Christie, did he ever live in this area?

TD: I don’t think so. I don’t know how I got on with ‘im, I don’t know. But anyway, we maintained his electric plant for a long time.

WRM: What about your own family now, was it your father who was the first to come into this area?

TD: Me grandfather came.

WRM: Yes, what was his name?

TD: Jabez.


TD: Yes, that’s right. Well, he was brought up at Priest Hutton.

WRM: Near Kendal?

TD: Yes, I think so. My Dad was born at Burton-in-Holme and there was a big family of them: one was a Methodist Minister, one was the first auctioneer at Lancaster Auction, and he lived at [unclear 00:05:50] at Carnforth. My grandfather was the auctioneer. Eventually - I don’t know why he came to live here - he went to Lancaster from Burton-in-Holme. They were all born at Priest Hutton, there’s a little chapel there. My Dad laid a foundation stone: I’ve got the trowel in there. That was a Methodist Chapel, very near the canal. We went and quite a lot of relatives all turned up there.

WRM: Why did he come to Settle?

TD: Well, I don’t know really. There must have been an opening.

WRM: Of course with a large family there wouldn’t be enough work near at home, would there?

TD: Well, he came as an auctioneer, and he was a preacher as well, you know?

WRM: What year was it when he came?

TD: 1899.

WRM: Oh, yes. Where did he live?

TD: Halsteads.

WRM: Did he? Which was newly built was it?

TD: Well, it can’t have been built so long, can it? Anyway, he went to live there. He lived next door to Thomas Harger. So my father and mother lived side by side, you see? And he started selling John o’ Gaunt sheep dips. He used to do farm sales.

WRM: So he was an auctioneer; where did he auction? Was it just livestock?

TD: Yes, he did that on the farms.

WRM: On the farms? Yes. Was that the days before the big auction marts were established was it?

TD: I don’t know when Hellifield was [started], but he used to go round the farms. He used to do farm evaluations. He used to go round the farms selling sheep dip, John o’ Gaunt Sheep Dip. But he was a very good organist, and a Methodist. There were a lot of Methodists about, and my auntie used to say he was as keen on going to work as he was on playing the organ. He’d go to one of these farms and if they’d one of these organ things... what do you call them?

WRM: A harmonium?

TD: A harmonium - he’d stop for the rest of the day there playing it! That’s what he spent his life doing, going round playing these things.

WRM: So that was Jabez Dugdale, who moved next door to Mr Harger, and Jabez had married who?

TD: Well, she was somebody from Penrith actually.

WRM: Oh I see, it wasn’t a local person?

TD: No, and it turned out that this person at Kendal was a relation to [unclear 00:08:59 – Horners?]

WRM: And your father, what was his name?

TD: Eddie, William Eddie.

WRM: William Eddie, and he married one of the Hargers. What was her name?

TD: Gertrude.

WRM: I see.

TD: And so Father, well I’ve told you that story haven’t I about Father looking for a job in Settle?

WRM: I’d love to hear it again, actually. I do remember you telling it.

TD: Well, my Father had served his time as an engineer and draughtsman for a firm in Lancaster, and so when he came to Settle he’d to try and get a job and the only person was Billy Swinger. So he went to Billy Swinger, and Billy Swinger said, ‘Well, yes, I could give you something to do, but you’ll have to come on six months trial and you don’t get any pay for it.’ So he said, ‘I’m going to build a motorbike, I could do with the plans drawing for it.’ So my Father spent the first six months doing drawings for this motorbike, which is down at [unclear 00:10:21 – Keighley?] now. So he did that, and at the end of six months he said, ‘Right, I’ve finished this bike. Can you give me a permanent job?’ He said, ‘Well, you can stop another six months on approval if you like.’ So Father said, ‘Sorry, but it’s not on really.’ So he looked round for a job and he got a job, this sounds very strange but he got a job with Haygarth’s cycles up Station Road as a [unclear 00:10:54].  And May’s father, Ernest, was working there at cycle repairing, and my Dad worked for Haygarth’s for six months and Ernest went back to printing, and my Dad went into partnership with a lad called Packard: sheet metal working. And he was down behind Prospect Terrace in the old gas place there. And anyway, it didn’t work out very well and so my Dad said, ‘I’ll value the business and I’ll either buy you out or you can buy me out.’ Anyway he bought him out, and then with a fella called Stanford Metcalfe...

WRM: Stanford? Or Stanfer?

TD: I don’t know how you spell it; his second wife’s still living. He built [unclear 00:12:00 – Battycrofts?] the laundry.

WRM: Oh yes, which is that?

TD: Oh, well you know where you used to live, High End Road and right on further on there was sheet metal shop, behind where Ellen Hunter lives?

WRM: Oh, yes.

TD: So he built this from a laundry, but I don’t know whether it ever got going at all. It might have done, but he went bankrupt anyway. So my Dad bought that off him and he moved up there, and then time went on and my grandfather died when I was about nineteen or twenty or twenty one. And he’d no end of sales on, all over the place, and he died suddenly so instead of handing all these sales over to anybody else my Dad took them all on; and he had a part-time job as valuer and auctioneer and he took that over for a year. And I told you about this vehicle he bought? He bought a T Ford.

WRM: A T Ford?

TD: A T Ford, the old original Model-T Ford, and he cut the back seat off and made it into a flat wagon, but on Sundays he’d put the seats back on and took all the Methodist local preachers round Bentham, Westhouses, and all round there.

WRM: Oh, lovely.

TD: And my father was a local preacher. I think I’ve told you this once, but he was in the Dramatic Society at Settle and whenever he was in a play on the Thursday, Friday and Saturday at Settle, if he was preaching at Bentham or Westhouses, when he went the next day, Sunday, to preach there was hardly anybody at Chapel. So he had to let the Minister at Settle know when he was in these plays, and he hadn’t to put him at Westhouses or Ingleton or Bentham on a Saturday whenever he was in a play because nobody went.

WRM: What about Mr Haygarth and his cycles? Was Mr Haygarth an old established Settle firm?

TD: He must have been. He had a big family, you see? There was no end of them!

WRM: He eventually moved into opposite Linton Court, didn’t he? Didn’t [unclear 00:14:56 – Charlie Harrison] work for him?

TD: Oh yes, that’s right, and he had a petrol pump there as well. He was one of the early petrol pumps.

WRM: Was he?

TD: Yes.

WRM: What was his first name, this Mr Haygarth?

TD: I don’t know what it was, was it Arthur? I don’t know. But he lived up... you know where the Primitive Chapel is on Skipton Road, right opposite. Miss Whitehead lived in one. Well, she lived in the one nearest Settle and Haygarth was the one nearest Overdale. He lived there with a big family, there were nine of them.

WRM: What’s the earliest doctor you can remember in Settle?

TD: Well, I had Dr Lovegrove.

WRM: Had you? He was at Dr Buck’s house, wasn’t he, in the market place?

TD: That’s right, yes.

WRM: He took over from Dr Buck.

TD: Yes, that’s right.

WRM: Where do the Hislops come in?

TD: I don’t know. David was born where Spensley’s shop is, and David’s comin’ up eighty now. He was born there, anyway.

WRM: What was David’s father called? There was David and Alan, wasn’t there?

TD: There was David and Alan and Tony.

WRM: And Tony. Tony went to Canada...

TD: Tony went to Canada.

WRM: Alan was the solicitor.

TD: And David was the youngest.

WRM: He was the doctor, that’s right.

TD: They must have lived there, and then they moved down to Marshfield.

WRM: And then they came up to Linton Court, did they?

TD: Well, David did, his father didn’t. His father eventually finished in Mayville Terrace, I think, or somewhere round there. He went into rooms and died there.

WRM: And there was also [unclear 00:17:20], wasn’t there? Where did he live?

TD: Well, he lived at Whitefriars.

WRM: Did he? And he was a solicitor?

TD: He was a solicitor.

WRM: He wasn’t in partnership with Alan was he?

TD: No, Alan took over afterward.

WRM: And then you’ve also mentioned about the Lamberts, the printers, that was quite fascinating.

TD: Well, J.W. Lambert, he was a governor at the Day School, and he had a big family. They all had big families in those days, didn’t they? There was Bert Lambert, who became a Professor at Oxford, and he invented the gas mask that was used in the First World War. And he got quite an acknowledgement for that after the war; and he got an honorary commission and went out to see the troops in action in France. And then there was John who became the Governor of a jail out in Ceylon, and was out in India at one time. He ran away and left home. Then there was Ernest, that’s my father-in-law, and then there was Vic.

WRM: What did Ernest do? He went into the printing industry, did he?

TD: He went into the printing works. Then there was William. Ernest and William were partners, of J.W. Lambert & Sons they were the two sons. Then there was Vic who was the black sheep of the family. He eventually finished up as a valet to somebody down in Cambridge there. Then there was a girl, and I think she died.

WRM: And the printing, I mean they were doing quite impressive books, weren’t they, like some of Riley’s books.

TD: Oh, yes.

WRM: You know, [unclear 00:19:14 - ‘The Cathedral and Salisbury See’?] was printed by Lambert’s, wasn’t it?

TD: Yes.

WRM: They also had a handbook, didn’t they?

TD: Well, they had these, what-do-you-call-it, they must have taken a good bit of printing, what do you call it, books that came out every year... almanacs.

WRM: You also mentioned about the enormous weight of the machinery there was at the old shop upstairs.

TD: Well, that’s really... they were in Chapel Street once and then they eventually moved into... I’ve an idea that it was part of ‘The Golden Lion’ wasn’t it, originally? But there was a big wall right up in the centre of Cheapside, at the top. I remember this because I electrified it, you see? But when I was courting there was this printing works right on the top floor, and right in the middle, it must have been on this retaining wall, was this big gas engine. How they got it up or down I don’t know. Well, they broke it to take it down because Tot Lord got it in the end. But this gas engine and all the shafting they’d put in, and the beltin’ running to all the different machines, and this gas engine went bump, bump, bump every time it fired, and if you were downstairs - because I used to go in a lot because May was there, that’s when we were courtin’ - the whole building would go like that every time and that went on for years and years and years. How it never collapsed I just don’t know.

WRM: You also told me about Tot’s early days. His family were greengrocers, weren’t they?

TD: Well, Tot’s father, and this is as far back as I go, Tot’s father had a greengrocer’s shop half way down the cobbled bit coming down from Upper Settle, where it narrows, and they were half way there. And Tot, of course I didn’t know anything about this, Tot must have been fourteen, I think, when the war broke out. So he’d have been eighty eight now if he’d [lived]. I think it was something like that, perhaps not as old as that; but anyway something like that and he went and joined up at fourteen, and they wouldn’t ‘ave ‘im and sent ‘im back. Anyway he went at sixteen, and he said that he was eighteen, and they ‘ad ‘im. But the war was over very shortly after he’d joined up and he came back to work for his father, and I presume he wouldn’t be married then, you see? This is only what I’ve sort of grasped... Anyway, he’d no intention o’ working, he was always scrounging, you see, and he got married and I remember the story went that his father said, ‘Well, look, I’ll provide you with a cottage and I’ll give your wife some money...’

[Woman enters, presumed to be Mrs Dugdale]

MD Are you having a good browse?

WRM: Oh, yes, yes.

MD I could do with a cup of tea, do you fancy a cup?

WRM: Hello, doggie, now then doggie, now then...

TD: And he said, ‘Well, I’ll keep your wife in vegetables and things, but you can work for me and you get nothing’, you see? So this is where I eventually came into it, and I think I must have been about ten or twelve. Well, Tot had to make a living somehow or other, and the first thing I remember was that he used to go to my Dad’s sales. This is how it all tied up, you see? And Tot would buy all the books he could but he hadn’t any money to pay for them, and he started at that time what they called the [unclear 00:23:27 – art?] club. It was nothing to do with museums or anything; it was just a room about as big as this. And he also started collecting scrap, and he’d got to that stage when I remember him of getting old cars, and they were in a bit of a croft that belonged to his father and they used to go in there. Well, the seats came out and they went all round this [unclear 00:23:56] club, so you can imagine what it was like. It was a pig sty...

WRM: It was a bit of a pig ‘oil was it?

TD: Well, there was nothing about it, and then it had these car seats round. And he’d buy these books from my Dad and then he’d say, ‘Pay you tomorrow, Eddie, pay you tomorrow.’ Well, my Dad would let him get away with that, you see, and the books went. And he used to pick out any books... he got very clever, he’d pick out any books which he thought would be interesting to a fella Laycock at Skipton - that’s where the Wines place is now.

WRM: Yes, I remember him.

TD: And he used to take these books down to Skipton and sell them to Laycock, the rest he used to take up to the Paper Mill for pulping, and one or two that he fancied himself went on a shelf in this [unclear 00:24:55] club. So of course eventually he’d got quite a few books and then there was a sale. There wasn’t much sale for scrap metal really, it was very, very poor, it wouldn’t fetch much at all; but the stuff that was worth anything was copper and solder. Now the best price was solder if it was clean, which is where I used to come into it. Two or three of us would give him a hand for sixpence, and we used to pile these old cars up on top of one another and set fire to them. Well, you couldn’t do that today; the stink must have been terrible. And then the next day he’d clear all the stuff away and the rubbish in the bottom was where the solder had run, and he used to have an old bucket and we used to get a big fire going and all this rubbish went into this bucket, you see? Well, all the solder melted and the rubbish came to the top, you see, so he scooped all the rubbish off and finished up with quite a lot of solder in a bucket. And then he had quite a lot of old bread tins, and you know what a bread tin is like, and he used to pour the solder in there and he used to come out with the size of a loaf of bread of solder. Well, that would fetch a mint of money for Tod as it was clean solder. And he used to sell that, and his copper. But there was also the sale for ball races and when he got a car, if the ball races were alright, he could sell them, you see? So he used to give us sixpence for every ball race we could get out of a car without it being damaged. So that’s how I came to meet him up there, and then of course it was nice to get a few sixpences to spend on sweets. So what with my father selling him books and me helping him, that’s how I got to know him.

WRM: But eventually, I mean, it was astonishing what Tot owned, wasn’t it? I mean, the family still own a lot, don’t they?

TD: Oh, it was amazing.

WRM: I mean, they own all that land north of the top road to Langcliffe, don’t they?

TD: Anyway he started that, and then he used to go buying pictures. Then of course he started caving. I never went with him caving, but I used to go sales and I once... one of the hair-raising things I did, I went to... I’ve told you this before haven’t I, I went to Kilnsey to a sale there?

WRM: Oh, yes.

TD: We had a wagon, a 3 cwt wagon and we went to Kilnsey to this sale; we never bought anything and we set off back. Tot was with me, and it blew a gasket so he said, ‘We can’t get ‘ome like this, we’ll ‘ave to see what we can do. We’ll ‘ave to be towed.’ So we went into the pub there, and it was at that time when there was a fella called Bell... where did Bell live?

MD Which Bell?

TD: He was a wagon driver. He wasn’t at the Shambles was he?

MD Oh, I don’t remember a Bell, Tom. On the Shambles? There was a Bell down Pen-y-ghent View.

TD: No, this was a wagon driver, he lived on the Shambles. And he worked cartin’ for the quarries, so we said to ‘im, ‘Would you tow us back?’

WRM: Sorry about this, we’re not being at all helpful.

MD Oh, it’s alright. [Sound of teacups rattling]

TD: ‘Will you give us a tow back to Settle?’ So he said, ‘Well, I will for a consideration.’ So I said, ‘What’s your consideration?’ He said, ‘I’ll have a pint.’ So I bought him a pint, and then we hadn’t got a rope so he said, ‘Well, I know where I can get a chain’. So there was a steam roller on the side of the road that ‘ad a chain on it. Well, the links were as big as that, yer know? So we coupled this onto his wagon and onto my axle, underneath the axle like that, fastened it off and we set off. And we got as far as the pub at Cracow – whatever do they call that pub?

WRM: Oh, yes, I know.

TD: [To May] What’s the pub at Cracow?

WRM: It’s not ‘The Devonshire’, is it?

TD: Yes, I think it is ‘The Devonshire’. So we got there and stopped on the front. So he says, ‘I think we could do with a consideration now.’ ‘What do you want?’ ‘Oh, I’ll ‘ave a pint.’ So he had another pint and it was gettin’ well on then, and so we set off again and we got to ‘The Angel’. The same thing happened. Well, he’d be gettin’ really fresh by then, so we set off from ‘The Angel’ eventually and it was getting quite late and well, he went hell for leather! Tot was scared stiff.

WRM: [Laughs]

TD: ‘I told yer tha’d make it, Tot,’ he says. Tot goes, ‘Ooh...’ and he kept looking round, and the wagon was going like that, and Bell was having the time of his life. I never thought we’d get back to Settle.

WRM: [Accepting tea] Oh, thank you very, very much, thank you, is this tea?

MD Yes.

WRM: No, thanks.

MD You don’t?

WRM: No.

TD: We pulled up outside Ellis’s, well, the brake drums were red hot, and the front axle had come right out like that, it had come right out, and both front tyres were absolutely scoured right off.

WRM: Eeh, lovely.

[Interruption in tape]

TD: You know Tom Woolf?

WRM: Yes.

TD: Well, his mother came from Askham.

WRM: Did she? So a lot of girls came from Furness did they?

TD: Yes.

WRM: To work at Giggleswick School?

TD: Yes.

WRM: And they did come from Tyneside as well?

TD: Evidently, yes.

WRM: Yes, and quarrymen, they came from Derbyshire, didn’t they?

TD: Well, some came right from Cornwall, didn’t they?

WRM: That’s right. And then Hector Christie brought in workers from Devonshire?

TD: Yes, that’s right.

WRM: Was there some strike or other and he broke the strike by bringing in workers from Devonshire? Something like that.

TD: I tell you who was... I was told I’d slipped up and never did anything about it, but they lived next door to our shop, and that was old Pugh. Now he came up from Devon. He was sent by his parents because there was work at Settle, and he came to some relatives in Upper Settle, and they sent him by train to Colne, he was eight years old, and he walked from Colne to Settle on his own to relatives he didn’t know existed or anything about them, and then he went to school at Settle and then he got a job as tea boy on the railway, and he was tea boy from start to finish for the railway.

WRM: What was his first name?

MD Well, I know his son’s name was Altman, wasn’t it?

TD: Altman, yes. He had a little shop in Kirkgate and he used to sell vegetables.

MD And ice cream, home-made ice creams. Oh, no... no, that was Embley next door.

TD: Do you remember Embley that had...?

WRM: So what period would it be when he came up?

TD: Well, he was tea boy at nine when the railway started, and he was a tea boy from start to finish for the railway.

WRM: This was the Settle to Carlisle?

TD: Settle to Carlisle.

WRM: Oh, well you can work that out alright, yeah.

TD: And it was his daughter who told me that he was eight when he walked from Colne to Settle on his own. [Laughs]

WRM: So in Settle... there were really two Settles, weren’t there? Upper Settle was always quite separate, wasn’t it?

TD: Oh, I don’t know... well, I’ve photographs of it, building Craven Terrace and Ribble Terrace.

WRM: Yes, but the folk up in Upper Settle are a bit ‘clannish’.

MD Oh, yes, I’m with you there.

WRM: I mean they regarded themselves as ‘real’ Settle, didn’t they?

TD: I should have thought so, possibly. I’ll tell you who I was surprised by the other day. I was up at the Zion. Billy Graham, do you know Billy?

WRM: Oh, yes.

TD: Well, he started off at Victoria Street, one of those houses I own. He lived there when he was a lad.

WRM: Billy Graham is a good chap to have a chat with.

[End of Side B and interview – 00:35:34]